The Water Workforce Desert
Did you know that the water industry is grappling with a looming talent crisis that threatens critical services we take for granted every day? With seasoned professionals nearing retirement and a disheartening lack of newcomers, this episode of Liquid Assets dives deep into the root causes and innovative solutions to this pressing issue. Ravi Kurani hosts Max Fraser-Krauss, a water industry recruiter from Influx Search, as they dissect the recruitment challenges and brainstorm actionable strategies to close this generational talent gap.
The discussion uncovers the unique dynamics shaping the water industry's workforce. From the high demand for municipal operators to the role of flexible work arrangements and cutting-edge technologies like digital twins, it explores how to attract and retain the next generation of water professionals and it also highlights how Gen Z’s eco-conscious mindset can be leveraged and why the industry’s storytelling is key to attracting new talent.
This episode not only identifies challenges but also sparks hope with innovative ideas like gamification and redefining work cultures. Whether you're curious about water’s pivotal role in combating climate change or looking for inspiration to solve retention challenges in any industry, this episode offers something valuable.
What You’ll Hear in This Episode:
- The Talent Gap Defined: Why the water industry faces a massive shortage of skilled workers.
- The Generational Challenge: Insights into why Gen Z could be the solution—and the roadblocks standing in the way.
- Technology’s Role: How innovation can make water industry jobs more attractive and efficient.
- Retention Strategies: What’s missing in workplace culture, pay, and recruitment that causes talent to leave.
- Long-Term Solutions: Gamification, education, and messaging to spark interest in water careers early.
- Real-Life Stories: Anecdotes from Max’s experience recruiting in water and lessons from other industries like oil and gas.
Listen On:
Watch the interview:
Meet Max Fraser Krause
Max Fraser-Krauss is a seasoned recruiter and business manager at Influx Search specializing in the water industry, with years of experience. With a background that spans multiple industries, including oil and gas and battery materials, Max offers a unique perspective on the challenges and opportunities within the talent landscape. His passion for water stems not only from professional expertise but also from a personal commitment to environmental sustainability.
As a self-proclaimed “water nerd,” Max is deeply invested in bridging the generational gap in the workforce, leveraging his insights to connect the right talent with critical roles. His belief in the transformative power of technology and culture drives his approach to recruitment, ensuring both candidates and companies can thrive in this evolving industry.
Outside of work, Max enjoys exploring documentaries and discussions about water, often using these as inspiration to advocate for change in how the world values this precious resource. Whether he’s recruiting operators or advising tech startups in wastewater management, Max is on a mission to make the water industry an attractive and fulfilling career destination for generations to come.
Transcript
00:00
Ravi Kurani
Did you know that the water industry is staring down a 60,000 job shortage that could leave cities struggling to supply clean water? It's a crisis that's coming fast and one that a few people are talking about. Welcome to Liquid Assets where we dive into the issues shaping the future of water. I'm your host, Ravi Kurani and today I'm joined by Max Fraser-Krauss, a leading recruiter tackling the growing talent gap in the water sector. We're uncovering why this shortage exists, what it means for water sustainability and how we can attract a new generation to fill these essential roles. From the challenges of recruiting tech savvy talent to the urgent need for rebranding water work as a purpose driven career, this episode will change the way that you think about water and the people behind it. Let's dive in.
00:49
Max Fraser-Krauss
Hi, my name is Max Fraser-Krauss. I'm a water industry recruiter. I work for a company called C Industrial here in the uk.
00:57
Ravi Kurani
Max, how are you doing today?
00:59
Max Fraser-Krauss
I'm, I'm well. Nice having you on. Ravi, how are you?
01:02
Ravi Kurani
I am doing good. You and I are going to talk about the talent gap in water. This has actually come up a few times in a lot of the episodes that I've recorded in the past about the water industry just having a gap. Right. Where are the people in the water industry? What do they do? I'd love to get your viewpoint on it. You are a recruiter and I think this comes from a really interesting point because you're the person that's actually finding people to hire for other people. So let's, let's jump into it. Max. I think the first thing is let's just go ahead and like define what the talent gap actually is. Right. And sure. Why it's a concern for the water industry. Sure.
01:43
Max Fraser-Krauss
I mean, I mean from my point of view and this is something that I found out from speaking to candidates, speaking to clients and I mean from what I can see mainly in the uk, but also in the US and other parts of the world as well, where I've recruited, I mean, what I think the time got being is that we have a huge number of professionals in the water industry who are maybe 50, 55, let's say 10, 15 years from retirement, who are extremely knowledgeable of the water industry. They've been in the industry for a long time and they, you know, they know it really well. But they unfortunately, you know, and as they are allowed to, they're good they're going to retire soon.
02:25
Max Fraser-Krauss
And the problem is the gap is that we haven't got anyone or there are fewer people that are sort of joining the workforce that want to be in water. So we've got this issue where in the next, say 10 or 15 years, unless obviously something's done about it, we might have a serious shortage of talent within the water industry, which naturally will impact the potentially impact like the supply and treatment of water. You know, I mean, if we have fewer and fewer water industry professionals, let's say wastewater operators, for example, if we have fewer of those, naturally, that will impact the supply and treatment of it. So, I mean, you know, that's from my point of view, that's where the gap is. We've got loads of it, loads of experienced people who are going to leave the workforce soon.
03:12
Max Fraser-Krauss
And when we haven't got enough people who are going to be, who are joining it to, to replace.
03:18
Ravi Kurani
Actually that opens up kind of a few questions. Right? There's obviously.
03:21
Max Fraser-Krauss
Sure.
03:22
Ravi Kurani
There's obviously a pipeline problem. Right. You're having people, like you said, that are leaving the industry and not a quick enough rate of people that are actually coming in to fill those seats.
03:31
Max Fraser-Krauss
Yeah, yeah.
03:32
Ravi Kurani
What is. Two questions. First of all, just for the audience to kind of understand what are these jobs that we're talking about? Are you referring to, you know, you mentioned an example of wastewater. Are you mostly talking about municipal water, industrial water? Where does it, what's the spectrum of these jobs that we're talking about?
03:50
Max Fraser-Krauss
I mean, I imagine it's across the board, but I mean, from what I've seen, it's a lot more on the municipal side. So obviously, which affects, you know, drinking. Well, possible water and municipal. Right, Possible. But I mean, we see it sort of, I guess, across the board. Municipal water, industrial water. It's everyone, really. Okay.
04:10
Ravi Kurani
And then my second question is for the supply of new folks coming in. Why are there. Why are there not? Is it, is it like an educational problem that we're not teaching the right courses? Is it a fact that there's not enough money in the, in, in the water world and I can go and get a job driving an Uber? You know, I. What is, what is that? What does that look like from the supply side?
04:30
Max Fraser-Krauss
I don't know. I honestly, I wish I knew the answer to that question because, I mean, from, I mean, doing a really. Just a quick search On I guess the numbers, I mean in the UK and in the US I know that there are, it's something like 1% or 2% of graduates. So people that have what, let's say between the ages of what, 21 and 25 who are leaving university and there's 1% of those that are joining like either the energy or utility space. And then obviously further down from that, it's even fewer joining the water industry. Couldn't tell you why because I think the, because it's, I mean it's a really, having worked in the industry for a few years now, it's a really cool industry to work in.
05:12
Max Fraser-Krauss
You know, it's, you know, and you know that you're making a difference as well. I mean, if you think about it like, you know, you're impacting, I guess the quality of water or you're impacting, I guess, reducing waste, you know, from a wastewater side. So I mean, I couldn't tell you why they're not joining. Could just tell you that it's happening.
05:31
Ravi Kurani
And, and then if we kind of double click on the problem in itself. What is, what does that look like? What's the implication of it? Like you said, in 10 to 15 years we're going to have a shortage of folks in the industry. Is that, is that a 10% shortage, a 20% shortage? Like how many seats are going to go unfilled?
05:50
Max Fraser-Krauss
I, I think it's something like 2,000 vacancies, but I'm sorry, 2,000 types of jobs, I think. And then it's like 60,000 makers or something actually.
06:00
Ravi Kurani
Oh my gosh.
06:01
Max Fraser-Krauss
That was. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, but if you think about it, you know, if we've got a decent level of employment now and then in 10, 15 years we're going to have people leaving and then like I said, There's 1% of grads that are joining then, you know, it's, I guess the math speaks for itself, you know. So yeah, it's a bit of the number I saw it was 2000 different types of job and two 63,000 actual vacancies. Got it.
06:34
Ravi Kurani
Okay, so now we have this 60,000 vacancies, right, or so that are going to show themselves. If you were to wager against or you know, if we can brainstorm a few strategies on how to get people up, trained. What do you, what do you think, what do you think you can do in terms of Reskilling, you know, what does that look like?
06:54
Max Fraser-Krauss
I mean there's a short term, the immediate short term, which I mean from my own, I guess what I really think it should be done is players, the big players, both these private companies like you know, Xyle and your earlier, who naturally as market leaders will have, you know, a wealth and a massive wealth of. I don't know if they are doing like sort of, if you like community outreach. But I think one of the things that would be really useful as an immediate solution is getting violent, getting Zion, getting all these other big name private companies to potentially skill people, well grads in particular.
07:36
Max Fraser-Krauss
But I mean, I suppose anyone who's interested, but I mean naturally when it comes to getting people interested, there's a whole other host of reasons that you need to address first I think, I mean for example, if you make the water industry a more attractive industry to work in, naturally you'll have less of a trouble attracting people in the first place. Right. Obviously, stands to reason. So for example, you know, I guess one of the solutions I was going to bring something around if you make the industry more attractive either by making a bigger deal out of the importance of water. Because I think one of the things that, and this is something I didn't know until I started working is just how vital water is, but also just how scarce it is.
08:24
Max Fraser-Krauss
I mean I was watching some documentary about I guess the water problem. Something like 1% of surface water is possible. Some crazy stat about how obviously there's so much water in the world but so little of it is usable, is drinkable. So I think making a bigger deal first of all about the water industry, about why water, you could see it as under the sort of the wider climate umbrella, that would be the first thing. So make a big deal, you show people it's important and then naturally those that are more eco conscious and obviously nowadays with the generation, is it Gen Z now we have Zoomers. Yeah, yeah, Zoom was right. Yeah. So the Gen Zs are the most socially or eco social, eco conscious generation we've seen so far. Right.
09:18
Max Fraser-Krauss
So naturally they will be the, if we make a big deal to them and show that if you join the water industry you'll be, you'll be contributing to, you know, quote unquote saving the planet, you know, contributing to that climate change issue. Then you know, we'll, that's a, that's a big solution right there. So I think shouting about it is one thing. I guess if we're talking about the Zoomers again, they are also the most purpose driven generation. So you know, if you make the, obviously organizations have a responsibility to make themselves attractive and if, you know, if they demonstrate their ability or demonstrate the attractiveness again, that will help them, help them attract staff. So the combination of being purpose driven is a really big one.
10:07
Max Fraser-Krauss
And in a post Covid world as well, flexible work, I mean this is a really big or a key driver for them, you know, so the ability to work from home or the ability to maybe even be a, you know, like a, they call it digital nomads, you know, we can just work from anywhere. Yes, that would really help. That would really help as well. So I mean, another thing that's really big and is I guess more pertinent when we're talking about the younger generation involved in water is the adoption of sort of technology in general. So like the water industry is, you know, is sort of always, for those of us who work is infamously like slow to adopt, you know, technology.
10:49
Max Fraser-Krauss
So I guess expediting the adoption of technology, which again makes it appeal to this tech savvy generation that we have compared to the Generation X, I think Those sort of late 40s, mid-50s, early 60s who are inherently less tech savvy. Absolutely no disrespect at all. But yeah, they will because they haven't brought up in a world that is technologically advanced in the same way that perhaps you and I probably have or the Zooms have. So that technology piece is also really important, I'd say.
11:23
Ravi Kurani
I actually really love that list. Right. I mean, if you kind of go back and start off with making it a bigger deal, like you said, right back to that documentary that you watched on water is vital and it is scarce. And underneath that climate umbrella with the Zoomers being where they are, there is definitely a chance to make something a little bit bigger. Right. So that they can go ahead and find value in working these water careers. Because I was actually thinking about that of you can get a bunch of millennials or even Gen X to kind of join the workforce and great, you can probably fill the seats.
11:58
Ravi Kurani
But if you really want that longevity that you had with the folks that are now in the water industry, they've been there, like you said at the beginning of this episode, for 30, 40 years, working in the same positions. And Gen Z is going to have that same time scale because they're starting into the job markets today and then I guess even rewinding the track a little bit to go to the generation that's even before them that are now going into college and probably are sitting in high school trying to figure out what they should actually go into next. And so completely it is a messaging problem at heart. And it's funny you say that because messaging and storytelling have come up so many times on this podcast of like water, this storytelling problem.
12:43
Max Fraser-Krauss
Yep, yep. I mean, like I said before I started working recruitment and before I sort of switched over to the water market, I had absolutely no idea. I was just like, I'll turn the tap on and my water comes out or I turn on the shower and I can have a shower. I had no idea about how absolutely vital it was. And I mean, if you think about it, of course it's vital. It makes absolute sense. It's a finite resource. I mean, you could, I mean, I wouldn't go so far as to say we should treat it like oil and gas, for example, because I, I would argue it's even more important. You know, I mean, like in the long term we're probably going to have to, we're going to have to deal with not using oil and gas. Right.
13:19
Max Fraser-Krauss
But we can't survive without water. We just can't. So it's, so it's even more important. So I mean, you mentioned obviously the high schoolers there, Ravi, and there was another really interesting YouTube video I saw about how we can get there. And this is more of a longer term, longer term solution. But I mean, it's the gamification of the water ministry. So there's, there is, interesting enough, there's a mobile app called Water Battle. So it's, you know, you can play, you play on your iPhone, you play on your Android and it's like a platform game and it's about protecting water. Right. And your parents can play along. If you have a smart meter at home, your parents can connect the smart meter to the app and then based on your water usage, you can unlock like different levels.
14:11
Max Fraser-Krauss
So at mountain, I mean, obviously, you know, high schoolers maybe are spending loads of time playing platform games and they're on there on their iPads. But I mean, but I mean, even if we're talking about. You guys call it elementary school, right? Yeah. In the uk. Elementary school. Yeah. Primary School. Yeah, yeah. You know, if they're sat there playing this platform game and they're realizing how important water is and obviously their parents are being incentivized to save water, then that's a huge, potentially huge impact on people who maybe are thinking, maybe 10, 15 year olds who are like, I don't know what I do with my life, but I really like this game.
14:50
Max Fraser-Krauss
It's a bit of a stretch perhaps, but I mean, if you're taking those types of steps now in 10 or 15 years you might have a, you know, 25 year old that, you know, that's thinking about what he wants to do with his oil life and thinking, yeah, let's, let's go into war. It was a cool game. It seems like it's an important thing and it's. Have you planted the scene early? I mean, you've got this because you're tapping into a larger market of potential time.
15:16
Ravi Kurani
Yeah. And I think you actually raise a really interesting point. I want to, this is a perfect segue into kind of how technology can help in closing the talent gap. But an interesting point that you actually just raise up is you have to change the rules of the game. Right. The entire paradigm was huge. Because, Rick, you mentioned where millennials or Gen Z grew up in a tech native world. Boomers may not have that right. Folks that grew up in the 60s and 70s, they just naturally lived in neighborhoods and they worked with their units, where they physically met with people. Totally makes sense.
15:53
Ravi Kurani
But there's case studies now where, you know, you see folks or kids sitting on their phone and they're playing a game, but they're actually connected to many more people than you otherwise would be if you were kind of in, you know, physically in your neighborhood by potentially playing a game, by actually gamifying something. And so I think if you start off with the first principle is that we need to change the paradigm, or rather the paradigm is changing what are the new rules that we need to play by. And if that means that you're in a tech native world, if that means that you use, you know, Roblox or whatever you're going to use to actually build, you know, like a water world in there connected to your smart meter.
16:30
Ravi Kurani
So you can actually, it drives the same narrative and that aids with storytelling in a much more comfortable narrative compared to what Gen Z or Zoomers are used to playing with versus somebody that, you know is thinking about this from an older mindset. And so completely, I think you Know, I don't think it's actually that far fetched to think that we might need to think about new storytelling and messaging ways to actually get the, to get the word across. Let's kind of, let's come back today. Right. So in the, in the 10 to 15 year gap, it seems like our only real supply of folks that can help us fill the talent gap like you mentioned is Gen Z and probably Millennials and some Gen Xers. Given that, what do you think technology can do to close the talent gap?
17:14
Ravi Kurani
I mean points 2 and 3 you mentioned is flexibility. Right. Flexibility all came around because of COVID because were on Zoom, were working on our computer and then like you said, water has been slow in adopting technology. So with this world of technology, what can we do?
17:29
Max Fraser-Krauss
Well, I mean if we're well naturally technology and I suppose specifically automation will naturally make jobs easier, won't it? So I mean if we're making jobs, jobs easy, utilizing technology in that sense will make, will make someone's job easier. And I mean, you know, I don't know you Ravi, but I mean the easier my job is, the more likely I am to do it, you know. So that's an attraction sort of piece again, you know, that's the, that's what I guess one of the things I'd say but I think, I mean when we're talking about technology usage in the motor industry, it's, you know, it's demonstrating how for example, right. You've got digital twin now is really big. Yeah. Using that is can really help with efficiency gains.
18:16
Max Fraser-Krauss
So I mean I would honestly think that the technology that we have at our fingertips now is what is making the industry attractive again. I mean, I feel like I'm repeating myself now but I mean it comes back to making it more attractive. So the technology companies that are, I guess there's a lot of tech startups both. I mean obviously I speak to tech startups California all the time. There's always rain and stuff except doing some really interesting stuff. But I mean the making the industry more efficient and making the industry I guess less frustrating to work. It will help I guess retain people in the industry. Interestingly enough, I spoke to a candidate over the summer he left the industry. He'd been in it for like 20 years. So he's probably close to the Gen X I'm talking about.
19:04
Max Fraser-Krauss
But he, because I asked him sort of what about the, what about the role that I was speaking about which was sort of was with a tech startup, a SaaS wastewater startup. I asked him what was interesting about the role and why he was interested in pursuing it. And he said that because what they're doing is finally they're trying to digitize, they're trying to know, push technology, be on a cutting edge of technology in the water industry. And the reason that I left the industry in the first place is because that wasn't happening. So I think, you know, the implementation of technology will make people who have a genuine passion for the industry, but who are, who have been frustrated by the industry or the lack of sort of progression, if you like, industry will make them, you know, either want to rejoin.
19:51
Max Fraser-Krauss
Like I said, that's just one example. I'm sure there's loads of examples of people that would have been pushing for it and left and now maybe could see that this company is doing so they might run with them, come back, or those that are considering leaving the industry, it might make them think twice about leaving because they're seeing an actual, maybe not a revolution, but you know, a huge change towards more, I guess, to more digitalized.
20:16
Ravi Kurani
Yeah, yeah, totally makes sense. You kind of sit at this inflection point in the pipeline, right? You're kind of as a recruiter almost, in a sense, you're like the first lines of seeing the supply and demand of people problems. When you're looking at roles to hire, what are you just qualitatively like, what are you seeing out there? What are we hiring for right now? Who are you interviewing and what does that pipeline look like for you?
20:46
Max Fraser-Krauss
I mean, one of the most in demand roles that I've seen, not necessarily that I've worked on personally, but not that I know people are looking for is like operators. And that's why I mentioned at the start there, like wastewater engineers or wastewater plant operators, particularly in the US is huge. I mean, the roles, there's a lot of roles that I work on that are more commercially focused, like sales focused. But I mean, it's all about the, I mean, particularly in the uk, it's demand for experience in the municipal space. So for example, there was a, in fact this summer or this summer just gone. And last summer there was like four or five roles that were all exactly the same for the same company that wanted municipal experience.
21:37
Max Fraser-Krauss
So the experience working with water utilities, either in the UK or in the US which naturally makes, obviously it makes your job easier, but it also makes your job harder. It Just tells you just how in demand municipal experience is.
21:50
Ravi Kurani
Yeah, completely. And I guess if you're kind of thinking about municipal folks that you're hiring for, Right. And you end up with what's currently like reality tax units that you end up happening, which is you have a shortage of operators that are probably going to buy the tech solutions that is like this SaaS wastewater company, but at the same rate, you don't have the operators that are sitting there that can actually buy the technology that they're going to implement. Right. So it's almost this circuitous problem where you have everybody that wants to work on the tech, but you have nobody that's going to buy the tech because there's not somebody sitting there that's going to actually make the purchase.
22:28
Max Fraser-Krauss
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the way that I've heard it described. This is. I was speaking to the gentleman who, in the uk, who's more on the older side, and he said, we've got loads of guys that know loads about water but are not tech savvy at all. And we've got loads of kids. You said kids as well. I think you meant talking to me. But loads of kids that know loads about tech have absolutely no experience. So I mean, it's the same type of thing in that we've got, you know, there's this almost like this vicious circle, like I say, in that we. And there's no sort of meeting in the middle. You know, there's no crossover, there's no equilibrium.
23:12
Ravi Kurani
Yeah, yeah. Dang. I want to kind of pivot over to you really quick, Max, and Sure. What makes you tick? Like, why do you do this? Can we go through kind of your history a little bit of what drives you to do the work that you do in water?
23:31
Max Fraser-Krauss
I mean, the naturally question could be off guard with that. Why do I. Why do I work in water? Well, I initially, this is probably not the greatest, the best answer, but initially I started working in. Partly because I, you know, I started working with a different manager and that was his. But I mean, since working in the water industry, I've, you know, I've become a bit of, a. Bit of a water nerd. Like I said, this idea that I watched documentaries about war opportunities that really nerdy. But the geeking out about water is great. But I mean, like I said, I.
24:01
Ravi Kurani
Mean you are on a water podcast. So it's totally fine.
24:03
Max Fraser-Krauss
Yeah, I preaching to get quiet, but no, like I said the, like I said at the start, the water industry is a really cool, a really interesting industry to work in. So being able to, I guess contributing to that is I guess part of a big part of what makes particular on the professional side. I mean, I also consider myself an environmentalist. You know, it's nice to sort of to feel like you're making a difference either by helping a company or role or hiring for a company that is, you know, helping to save water, enhancing water efficiency, which obviously is, you know, making sure that we're addressing water scarcity issues or by helping companies that are, I mean, making water more available to people around the world either through say desalination or increased like sort of increased testing which naturally will.
24:49
Max Fraser-Krauss
Will ensure that the water that is being consumed by people is of higher quality and you know, is less likely to cause disease shafts to do damage. You know. So you know, I'll be honest that initially it was less of a choice. But since then and since realizing how important it is and how interesting it is, the opportunity to contribute to I guess water security, I guess is probably the best way of describing it is really what I enjoy and why, you know, why I guess I want to stay in the water with you now.
25:27
Ravi Kurani
And what were you doing before you, your manager switched you or force switched you into this water job?
25:35
Max Fraser-Krauss
So I was actually, I was recruiting in the chemical industry. So. Yeah. So which obviously there's a little bit of crossover because obviously there's water companies that are, you know, water that provides chemicals. But it was more on the oil and gas side and I partially switched over because post Covid obviously the oil price, the oil market wasn't in the best shape. So it made sort of fiscal sense. Yeah.
25:56
Ravi Kurani
Yeah. And you obviously moved from oil and gas to water. What were, what are the high level differences in candidates or your process or potentially the larger supply and demand problem that we're talking about in water. Like does that exist in oil and gas? What is the, what is the comparison of your job function in both of those? Right. Because you, it's kind of cool you get to see from a pipeline perspective the supply and demand problem of people in two very different industries?
26:29
Max Fraser-Krauss
Yeah, well, I mean for a brief stint there, actually I should have mentioned this. I worked in battery or in batteries, battery materials. And that was sort of, there was a little bit of a transition Phase because we thought, you know, the oil, street oil, the oil price is negative or the oil market is in, it is a really bad state. So let's do something a bit more buoyant. So I worked in that for a minute and I guess I spoke to a lot of oil and gas professionals before and after the pandemic. And so many of them said, particularly in places like Texas, which is obviously such a massive oil and gas hub and it's obviously still is.
27:04
Max Fraser-Krauss
But I mean speaking to people in Texas, speaking to people in Aberdeen, up in Scotland, which is obviously another big hub, a lot of them wanted to get out of the oil and gas industry because they didn't see a future for obviously, which to me seems pretty obvious, you know, because we are moving away from our reliance on oil and gas. But obviously. So that was one thing that I saw that people. Or there was a bigger influx of candidates moving away from oil which seems to sort of mirror I guess the global mood, if you like.
27:35
Ravi Kurani
Interesting. Because in a sense the problem is the same. Right. You end up having a churn of talent where in the water standpoint you have folks that are just getting older and ending up retiring and then people in the oil industry that just don't see it as a future. Given what you said.
27:54
Max Fraser-Krauss
Sure.
27:55
Ravi Kurani
With that obviously two very different problems. But let's move back to water again. How do you solve the retention problem if we're talking about that? Right. Like I think you mentioned there was a guy in an earlier example who had left the water industry and then you were interviewing him for this kind of SaaS wastewater company who now found that the kind of technology was what interested him. Like let's talk about retention.
28:19
Max Fraser-Krauss
Yeah, talk about retention. So I, I mean I think it's the same as every other industry really. And I think we're talking about staff retention. Comes down to one, how they're treated. I mean I don't think any time we about to say is going to be rocket science, but I mean you'd be surprised. So for example, how they're treated, I mean, and that comes down to, I mean that comes down to pay, obviously. Lowers come down to pay. I mean I don't know what it's like in the US but in the UK got a bit of a cost of living crisis.
28:51
Max Fraser-Krauss
So obviously making sure that people feel well paid and making sure that they can pay their bills or pay their mortgage or make sure they've got food on the table, it's a bit of a Nothing about the draft example, but pay is obviously a big thing, making sure that people are paid. But also company culture is a huge thing. There's a client I'm working with at the moment, they've just gone through a massive restructuring and they had a bit of a toxic culture issue and they now don't, you know, people don't want to work in places where they don't feel, where there's a toxic culture or if they don't feel valued, you know, it's not rocket science but people will be, well, if they're happy at work, they hope they will likely stay in their jobs.
29:32
Max Fraser-Krauss
Another thing that we actually implement here, we have done for the past 18 months is the four day work week. It's huge for staff retention. Because if you think about it, you know, if you join a company that is a four day week and then you leave and you go to a five day week, I don't know if you, what your working schedule at the moment is running, but I mean when you get used to having a three day weekend every weekend, going back to a two day weekend. Yeah, it would be crazy.
29:56
Max Fraser-Krauss
You know, so I mean that's, you know, I couldn't answer a question specific to water, but I mean in terms of staff retention, pay and organization culture and maybe work, obviously four day a week will not be possible for everyone naturally, but I mean, you know, if staff are happy and then maybe another example, like I mentioned earlier, is that flexibility, working, being able to work from home if you like, or having that hybrid arrangement would really drive retention. And it's, you know, it's all, it's, for me that seems common sense, but obviously it obviously isn't because we have people that still complain about toxic work and you know, say not feeling valued or feeling mismanaged or whatever. So obviously it's much easier said than done.
30:42
Ravi Kurani
When we look at the culture of these municipalities. Right. If we're going to kind of zoom into that for a second, sure. The majority of them are public. I know in the US A lot of them are public based entities that are usually run by city, county governments or they're potentially like part of a water district. There's a handful of like private companies.
31:05
Max Fraser-Krauss
But that's your American waters, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:10
Ravi Kurani
And so from that kind of mindset, do you feel that it is just because it's closer to like a public institution that the culture is the way that it is. And maybe the pay is slightly lower. Like, if were to really have a magic wand and wave something like, would you privatize water? I don't, you know, I don't know. And then raise the cost so you can then go ahead and pay people a bit more. You know, I don't know, I'm throwing some weird stuff out there, but I'm wondering, like, what do you think is going to drive those two main levers that you just said? Right. Pay and culture.
31:41
Max Fraser-Krauss
Sure. I mean, I wouldn't privatize water. It is, that's how it's been in the uk. I don't know if you've seen recently, Rami, but one of the biggest, in fact the biggest water utility in the UK, Thames Water, which saves, I think it's 14 or 15 or 16 million people, is in billions and billions of pounds of debt. And I mean, the thing about the way that it works in the UK is that you don't really, you don't have a choice of who supplies your water. It depends on where you live. So, for example, I don't even. We don't. We're not based in London, we're based up in Leeds, which is in Northern England. So we don't. You don't get a choice on your water provider, which naturally means that the water utilities in the UK have a monopoly. So it's.
32:22
Max Fraser-Krauss
I wouldn't privatize because they've demonstrated. And maybe I'm being cynical and I don't want to get too political on this, but they demonstrate that they aren't doing as good a job as they perhaps should have done. So I think one of the biggest things that will help with pay is to make, and I mentioned this at the start, is to make water viewed as more of a precious resource. And therefore. Which means if you make it more valuable or you make people realize how much more valuable it is, naturally you can drive the price up for it. I mean, if you look at the prices. Yeah. Price of petrol and diesel, you know, it's so much more than your water bill is.
33:02
Max Fraser-Krauss
Now, I don't know how expensive water is in the US for you, Ravi, but I can tell you that my water bill is a part of the pump, is a drop in the ocean compared to how much it would be to fill up your car. You know, and there's. Water is, in my opinion, a more valuable resource. So if you were to make water more Expensive. One, it would mean there'd be more revenue for those water utilities. And two, it would have that knock on effect of making people realize, you know, how. Well, making people realize that they can't just leave the tap on, you know, and it would make them value water more. So it would be if you, and this is, it goes back to what we're talking about, the paradigm shift.
33:43
Max Fraser-Krauss
If, if you make water more valuable, they will realize it, they will use less of it, which will mean that they're contributing to more water security.
33:52
Ravi Kurani
As you kind of moved into the water industry from, you know, a kind of non water industry, what is one or two things that you learned that the, that somebody that would be your counterpart.
34:07
Max Fraser-Krauss
My counterpart that hasn't yet joined the water industry?
34:09
Ravi Kurani
Yeah. What's something you know, in the world that somebody otherwise would not know now that you're in the water industry?
34:17
Max Fraser-Krauss
That's a great question. I knew how a flow meter works. I know how a valve works. If you imagine a valve in a pipe, that's. Yeah. Off the top of my head, the two examples, and those are all sort of operational, but. Yes, but obviously, you know, I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I'm a technical expert on, you know, my job is not to know how our flow meter works, but it's to understand the water market as a whole. And obviously that's why I wanted to talk about the talent gap rather than maybe suppose, you know, talk about what OEM is doing. What. Because. Because. Sure. Because, you know, I, you know, I don't have, I can't, I'm not a technical expert. I can't.
35:03
Max Fraser-Krauss
I don't have as much of an appreciation for say a photometer or a ph measure or a turbidity, you know, measure instrument, I should say, than someone who, in, who is a, you know, who has been in the water industry. Someone who as someone that I would recruit, if that makes sense.
35:21
Ravi Kurani
Yeah, yeah, totally makes sense. Max. I ask everybody this question before we end the episode and it's. Is there a movie, a book or a show you mentioned actually a few times you watched this documentary that has had a profound impact or changed the way that you look at the world or potentially changed the way that you look at the world of water.
35:43
Max Fraser-Krauss
There's a film with Mark Ruffalo in it might not mention. Really. It's. Is it called Dark Waters? It's about the Dupont water or the dupont chemical. Yep, that was pretty crazy. And then there is also the documentary. It was. It was actually on Netflix. It was part of the Netflix Explained series. It's like 25 minutes. It's a. It's really vital. It's really easy to watch. I mean, I think it's. I think it's called something like the water scarcity issue or something like that, and it just explains the issue. And it made me sort of think twice, even about, like, flushing the toilet, you know, and you realize just how much water is used when you. When you flush the toilet. And I mean, if ever my.
36:25
Max Fraser-Krauss
My girlfriend loses the tap on, you know, I have a proper go for that because, you know, it's sort of like, do you realize how little water we have in the world? Yes. Yeah. So that's those two. If you want. If you want a drama in the film with Mark reflect, or if you want, I guess, an era bit more informative, the Netflix document.
36:46
Ravi Kurani
Awesome. Thank you.
36:47
Max Fraser-Krauss
Yeah.
36:48
Ravi Kurani
Max, thanks a ton for coming on the show. This has been super insightful.
36:52
Max Fraser-Krauss
No problem. Thanks.
36:54
Ravi Kurani
If you want to listen to Liquid Assets, you can find us at LiquidAssets, CC or anywhere else you get your podcasts or on YouTube today.